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Coil Configs

Discussion in 'General Car Audio Discussions' started by peter_euro, Jan 30, 2004.

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  1. peter_euro

    peter_euro Full Member

    Not to be a whiner or anything and this is not directed at SI but... While looking for my new subs, I ran into a real stumbling block while trying to match the impedance of the subs to the impedance of my amp... Seems like most of the manufacturers picked a 2 Ohm DVC for the supersubs (Adire, RE, ED, SI, Adire) as the mostly sole impedance available... This really sucks for me because I like to fully utilize my amp (2400 watts at 1 Ohm vs 1150 at 2 Ohm) and makes my hesitant to pick any of these subs. And it just happened I need 2 of them and would like to wire them in 1 Ohm load... It really would be nice if the wiring options were more plentiful... I am sure I cannot be the only one running setup like this either... So please, please take this in consideration while offering new subs... I would think that specialty equipment was there to cater to special needs, wiring flexibility is one of these needs :angry:
     
    peter_euro, Jan 30, 2004
    #1
  2. I8apony19

    I8apony19 Full Member

    I completely understand your beef about the wiring options...but this is all that Stereo Integrity has to offer at the moment. SI is trying it's best to make sure we satisfy everyone out there...but this is not a perfect world :(

    On a more personal level..I'm glad SI get's more complaints about it's wiring options than it's Quality control...We have ran into 2 different problems with 2 drivers..one of which was user error...
     
    I8apony19, Jan 30, 2004
    #2
  3. peter_euro

    peter_euro Full Member

    well, considering I cannot use them because of the first reason, I would not be able to give you any input on the other issue, LOL... and this is not beef, just frustration... kind of a conspiracy theory, considering the same basket pops up just about everywhere, LOL... same basket, same wiring options... this is the frustrating part... not to be sarcastic or anything but it just makes me wonder sometimes what is the extent of the design and creation at each of the specialty manufacturers... this is not mentioning the built house sharing... you know, kind of hard to call Saleen a car make considering it is a Mustang after all... $50k Saleen or $15k Mustang, still no power antenna after 40 years... Silly but this is the reason why I would not consider buying a Mustang... I hope you can follow my logic... ;)
     
    peter_euro, Jan 30, 2004
    #3
  4. peter_euro

    peter_euro Full Member

    BTW, not to pick on you or anything but considering you speak for your company here, perhaps you should reconsider having this anti ED reference in your signature... ;) Just does not seem to be very professional and implies that you and your company are no strangers to flame wars... IMO, no matter how much displeasure you have from ED, it would be nice to see you can get above that and concentrate on issues related to car audio and let your product and your service (this part should not be difficult, LOL) speak for itself and walk all over ED... I mean it is nice to see people who can distant themselves from those little petty flames and grudges (do not get an idea I am pro ED since I have a few grudges against them too)... I just think you would gain more credibility and respect this way.... But then, what do I know... :rolleyes:
     
    peter_euro, Jan 30, 2004
    #4
  5. I8apony19

    I8apony19 Full Member

    Well..I am only a rep for the company...but there is a reason why I have it in my signature...one that is for my own reasons..not because of competition..

    But I think you are right...maybe I'll drop it....

    I do not have any sore spots for any companies out there...I do have tastes (like all of us do), but I tend to keep them in line....a few of us just have some minor personal relations problems with certain individuals...but I've gotten away from those people...so I guess I can do away with it...

    Getting back to your other point..I've wanted two tempests in my car...but they come in the most ridiculous VC configuration known to man...can't do anything about it :(

    at 2400w @ 1 ohm..you should be looking for a B15 or XXX15 ;)
     
    I8apony19, Jan 30, 2004
    #5
  6. peter_euro

    peter_euro Full Member

    Well, actually I decided on 2 RE XXX 15 since they were the only ones who offered to build them with 4 Ohm DVC... I am waiting for a confirmation though since they told me that it would be no problem since they can use their 2 Ohm VC they use in their quad 2 Ohm version... the problem is (and I have to thank Geo for pointing this out) that they do not offer on their site 2 Ohm quad version... But if everything pans out, they would be the only game in town (DD was another but they kinda turned me off after talking to their tech who would not even disclose the xmax which matters to me in my sealed box...) :rolleyes: I am just dumbfounded about so many obsticles in my way... The only thing I want to do is get a couple of subs, LOL... :rolleyes:
     
    peter_euro, Jan 30, 2004
    #6
  7. geolemon

    geolemon Full Member

    Depends on what you call "fully utilizing".

    Squeezing every last watt out of the amp?
    That would put 1200 watts into each sub... which might simply be a risk of overexcursion...
    "sending ____ watts to the subs" and "being able to use _____ watts given my enclosure" are two VERY independent things.

    Thermal powerhandling, vs. mechanical powerhandling (although it's really a poor thing to call it, IMO.. makes it sound like you should run as much power as possible).

    It takes a 4x increase in power to effect a 6dB change in output... and that's only if your sub still has enough excursion to do it.

    If sound quality is your priority, you might consider it "fully utilizing" your amplifier when you are running less than the full power possible from your amplifier to your subwoofers, placing the subwoofers in an enclosure where they can reach full (or nearly full) excursion on that much power.
    In doing that, not only are you coming within a dB or so of full output, but you have a huge amount of headroom available to you for transients, and your amplifier will be operating with much less distortion than it would be running at at the lower impedance/higher power as well.

    If SPL is the priority.. squeezing every last watt from the amp is the way to go.
    If SQ is the priority.. the opposite is true. :cool:

    All depends on what you call "fully utilizing"
     
    geolemon, Jan 30, 2004
    #7
  8. peter_euro

    peter_euro Full Member

    LOL, here you are... I sent you the parameters for RE's a while ago, BTW... I would like to compare what RE folks are saying to what you conclude... Actually, either I did not make my point clear or you missed it somehow... Regardless of what is happening right now with my subs and box, I was making a point that the impedance or rather lack of the flexibility of all these subs should not be a limiting factor in configuring a system... I mean I know what gain controls and sub level control are, LOL... If it just happened that the size of the box allows the subs to work well with this power, then this is great... but my point was that if it did not, I would be SOL and would either change the amps or add another one... This is where my frustration lies... It seems that none of these specialty long stroke monsters would be able to do what I need if the need was there... And this is really sad. I mean, there are people that like to run things in pairs, and there are many amps that put out their max power at 1 Ohm... So I just wish that someone would acknowledge the need for another impedance...LOL, I think this is a very reasonable request.

    Considering the lack of recognition of these brands (let us not kid each other that outside of the competition circles and tru hardcore fanatics anybody has ever even heard of these things, LOL), the more attractive features these subs have, the better. Do not forget that even in the competition circles these specialty brands have to compete with these widely recognizable brands.

    I do not know about you but for me, flexible wiring options are important in purchasing either amps or subs. I am not designing or manufacturing speakers but if I was, I would make sure that I leave room to make accommodations for at least a couple of basic configs... To me, selling subs with just one set of voice coil configs is like selling a car with only one engine option... You narrow your buyer numbers and lose a few... How many Mustangs or Camaros would be sold if only V6 or V8 were available? One way or another you would lose the sale numbers and potential customers... Even Corvette offers 2 engine variations...

    Personally, when I am looking at a sub that is rated for 1600 watts with 32 mm of xmax and think I can only supply 600 of that rating, regardless of the actual need, I would think pretty hard to get these things... You know, a matter of perception with no rationale behind. Kinda with the car that can go 160 and pumps out 350 hp, you can do just fine with a smaller displacement or a different car altogether, yet, I still got it anyway... :rolleyes:

    And I do not know what was wrong with that last set up but let me tell you, that 2400 watts really did not feel like much, most likely not due to power reasons but I hope you can understand why I panic thinking about losing half of the power... :angry:
     
    peter_euro, Jan 30, 2004
    #8
  9. sandt38

    sandt38 Full Member

    Peter,

    You need to keep in mind that sometimes, for optimum performance, there is really no good way to alter coil configurations.

    JL didn't choose the whacky coil configs on the W7 nessicarily to force you to buy their amps, it is just that it was the best configuration they could find to optimize the performance of the driver.

    Sometimes, in order to achieve perfection, you need to give a little.

    Your reasoning for "needing" the coil configuration on the subs to be a certain way, is the reason we all need to keep our purchasing decisions as a SYSTEM rather than as individual components in mind. Rather than starting with X amp and trying to find speakers to suit your needs, you need to consider the speakers you want, then find an amplifier to fit the bill. Now, you are stuck with an amplifier that woln't work with ALL the subs you are interested in, or settleing for second best in the sub department :( .

    Now, being that you are in the dyed-in-the-wool "amplifier doesn't affect sound, a watt is a watt" mentality, I am sure you can see the logic behind the proposed order of equipment selection.

    It seems as if you are placing the responsibility of your equipment selection on the manufacturers shoulders. :blink:
     
    sandt38, Jan 30, 2004
    #9
  10. BlkX

    BlkX Full Member

    Yep, this is why you buy speakers first then amps... Or at least have an idea of what kind of amp you're looking at when you buy the subs.

    In the case of the magnum d2's, i've heard that 600w apiece to those subs is more than enough power to get them moving. IIRC, your amp would give them exactly that wired to 2 ohms which would be achievable with what they offer. More power doesn't ALWAYS mean more SPL...although it's normally the case.
     
    BlkX, Jan 30, 2004
    #10
  11. geolemon

    geolemon Full Member

    Even if it were... Peter says that's not his priority.

    In the scope of the Brahma, 600 watts each won't quite bring it to full excursion in that enclosure, I'm sure. But it's not going to be far from full excursion.
    1200 watts on the other hand, may be enough power to actually drive it well beyond full excursion...
    So, how much power can it actually take - mechanically speaking - in his enclosure? Because he'll be limited to that amount of power, regardless.
    Then, what's the difference, in dB, between the sub on 600w, and the sub on "however much power it takes to reach it's excursion limits".
    Particularly if SPL isn't a priority at all, the dB or so difference isn't enough to really perceive, much less develop a migraine over. ;)

    Compounding the issue, check this out.
    If you model up the Brahma, and the XXX, in that enclosure, sealed... the XXX requires more power to reach the same levels of output, and it requires a larger enclosure to yield a 0.707 Qtc:

    The Brahma has a 0.707 Qtc in 2.8 cu.ft sealed.
    - In 1.4 cu.ft. sealed, it has a Qtc of 0.88... not bad, but getting underdamped.

    The XXX has a 0.707 Qtc in 4.1 cu.ft. sealed.
    - In 1.4 cu.ft, it has a Qtc of 0.99... quite underdamped.

    If you compare their response plots, at any point below 60hz, the XXX is a dB or two below the Brahma.
    If you look at the simulated SPL plot, at any point below 40hz, the XXX is lower than the Brahma (apparently it has a higher efficiency than the Brahma).

    So... if it's going to take more power, in the bottom octave, for the XXX to produce the same output levels as the Brahma, in that enclosure...
    ...what are you gaining, by running an XXX receiving 1200 watts each, compared to a Brahma, on 600 watts each?
    It's still going to boil down to only about a single dB gain in terms of output...
    And actually compromising the SQ of the system, due to the higher Qtc... due to the XXX wishing it were in a larger enclosure.
    <shrug> ;)

    So what's to gain? (besides more headlight dimming)
    Seems like an odd decision to make, when SPL isn't the priority.. SQ is.
     
    geolemon, Jan 30, 2004
    #11
  12. peter_euro

    peter_euro Full Member

    I think there is a difference between SPL as a goal and nice even bass at higher volumes... I am really not after SPL at all, LOL... SPL means to me getting it as loud as possible without taking into consideration the FR intended to be duplicated by the audio system while reproducing a song... I am not into burping or just annoying people... But I really love the feel of music, yes the feel in certain passages that were meant to be played this way... For once, I would like to hear Pink Floyd or Vangelis playing within the full FR spectrum, and at least Vangelis tracks do take the advantage of great dynamic range of digitally generated music... yes, I confess, I am an electronic music junky, LOL... lots of it plays were flesh and blood musicians would not able to venture... or could for that matter...

    Somehow I screwed up with this system the first time, not sure how it happened but it did... I first started with a 1200 watt amp on 4 Alchemies, it was loud but not very airy... kinda loud and flat... I switched to the 2400 watts of power and could I tell a difference? yes, I could tell the difference big time... it almost felt like the subs played easier, maybe an illusion but the effect was there to be noticed....

    Now I am trying to redo my system, to make it sound deeper, smoother and very airy and just surrounding me in aaaah, LOL... I just do not know how to take the statement that the Brahmas with 1150 watts will sound as loud and uniform at any volume within the subbass region as would the 2 XXX 15 in the same box and with 2400 watts instead... Actually, considering that XXX are suppose to rolloff sooner, they may potentially thump just like the Alchemies did.... Is this the situation that I am facing? How is this all beeing analyzed Chris? Is the cabin gain taken into account? I am really trying to get it right this time, so let me find out what I am facing one way or another.... Once again, basically same motor structure, different excursion, slightly different parameters... EIther a good explanation or aspirine please, LOL... I truly hope this is the last time I am changing this set up... I just do not want to find out that something went wrong again... BTW, what happened to the xmax difference in these calcs? As much as these drivers are alike, there are substantial differences and 7 mm difference in xmax... :(
     
    peter_euro, Jan 30, 2004
    #12
  13. DanWiggins

    DanWiggins Full Member

    How about focusing on getting the max out of the DRIVER, and not the amp? If you can reach full output with 600W of power, more power isn't going to get you more SPL - it will just get you a dead driver. Rather than say "I've got a 500 HP engine, now I need to find a vehicle for it", it's best to look for the type of vehicle first, then get the engine appropriate.

    In other words, I think you're going about it all backwards. Get your drivers/sub solution figured out first, then find the appropriate amplification for it. And if it turns out you only need 600-700W per driver, you can use your big Planet Audio amp. Drivers run cooler, amp runs cooler, electrical system has less draw, what's the downside? You still get full output...

    The horse ALWAYS goes in front of the cart...;)

    Dan Wiggins
    Adire Audio
     
    DanWiggins, Jan 31, 2004
    #13
  14. ScottS

    ScottS Full Member

    even if the horse is pushing me in my cart?
     
    ScottS, Jan 31, 2004
    #14
  15. DanWiggins

    DanWiggins Full Member

    I see this argument often... It actually comes down to economics. For every D4 sub you sell, you'll sell 10-20 D2s. When you have minimums to build for production, that means your inventory of D4s sits around quite a while. Cash on the floor, sitting unused, is bad. Means you have to sell them for a higher price to recoup your expenses. Of course, then you sell even fewer...

    It's like all the people that ask for an 18" Brahma. Guess what - we sell an 18" woofer (Maelstrom) in the same lower line as Shivas/Tempests. And for every Maelstrom I sell, I sell 100 Shivas, and nearly as many Tempests. 18" drivers just don't sell. So I'm not about to bring out an 18" Brahma, only to have it take a year to sell out 50 of the units. Waste of money. Yeah, there's a dozen people that I may have lost as customers. However, if it costs me $400 to "buy" each customer, well, that's really not a good business choice. Better to give away a dozen Brahma 12s - cheaper at least...

    In 95% of all cases, the D2 is the best choice. Companies have to build what sells, not just what the fringe wants. You can't live off the 5%; you have to avail yourself of the 95% marketing opportunity.

    ASIDE: our differentiation is XBL^2. A few other companies are using it, and more are planning on it as well. Of course, Adire is first and foremost a design house. We design gear for other companies. And we design gear that's built at dozens of buildhouses. Heck, we design gear for the build-house itself, in many cases...;)

    It's about what the majority of consumers want, not the minority. Businesses that pay attention to their minority customers/potential customers don't last too long...

    Dan Wiggins
    Adire Audio
     
    DanWiggins, Jan 31, 2004
    #15
  16. DanWiggins

    DanWiggins Full Member

    even if the horse is pushing me in my cart? [/b][/quote]
    I wanna see that picture! :D

    Dan Wiggins
    Adire Audio
     
    DanWiggins, Jan 31, 2004
    #16
  17. sandt38

    sandt38 Full Member

    I wanna see that picture! :D

    Dan Wiggins
    Adire Audio [/b][/quote]
    You asked for it :p ...

    [​IMG]
     
    sandt38, Jan 31, 2004
    #17
  18. ScottS

    ScottS Full Member

    owned
     
    ScottS, Jan 31, 2004
    #18
  19. peter_euro

    peter_euro Full Member

    I am excercising my right to disagree with you and I am disagreeing big time... I already had a full set up in my car but was not happy with the subs... So I got rid of them... Everything was set up for the subs I had before, including the amp that was suited to those subs to put out at 1 Ohm (BTW, Concept not Planet Audio last time I looked)... If I starting from scratch, I would definitively make sure that the AMP matches the subs... but I am not and really do not think I should be tossing my amps just because I want to try other subs... I am not talking about weird or odd wiring options but just an ability to run them the way I need... Is this so unreasonable and going backwards? I just do not understand why this is such a big deal and why all of these subs run the same configuration... this is all, I am not flaming anyone but just saying that in my opinion, specialty manufacturers or brands should cater better, that is all...

    Oh, and as you told me, I would not be able to reach that full potential in my box BTW... You said it should be close and plenty loud... very subjective and relative...
     
    peter_euro, Jan 31, 2004
    #19
  20. delvryboy

    delvryboy Full Member

    So when might this be happening? :p
     
    delvryboy, Jan 31, 2004
    #20
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