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Such A Nice System With Such A Bottle Neck

Discussion in 'General Car Audio Discussions' started by Steven Kephart, Oct 28, 2003.

  1. Steven Kephart

    Steven Kephart Full Member

    Today a customer came in that just bought a land cruiser (very nice :ss: ) and wanted me to fix some small problems with the system.

    The system has a Kenwood Excelon head unit and changer, the higher end Diamond Audio speakers, a 5 channel PPI amp, and a pair of Eclipse subs.

    So what was the bottle neck? The Eclipse subs were mounted in a Q-logic bandpass enclosure. Everything was fairly high end, except for the crappy box. It was really sad. :puke:

    Just thought I would share.
     
    Steven Kephart, Oct 28, 2003
    #1
  2. luvdeftonz

    luvdeftonz Full Member

    Did you let him know, or at least drop a subtle hint, about his poor selection for an enclosure (no comments on the Diamond's :) )? Something like, "Why are those awesome subs in such a shitty enclosure"? Or, "We here at the shop can make those subbies sound like they are supposed to." What's really odd is that the dude has a $50K suv, an otherwise high end sysytem, and a cheap ole' prefab bandpass.

    If he's happy with the enclosure, I guess we can't feel bad...



    yes
    we
    can
    !
    :)
     
    luvdeftonz, Oct 29, 2003
    #2
  3. BlkX

    BlkX Full Member

    No offense to you, but it still amazes me that some people will go out and buy the nicest equipment and trust a shop to install it for them. I used to do the same thing...not with high end equipment though.

    I think i'd be a little more trusting of someone like Stephen rather than the morons we got working in the shops around here. I had to tell the guy up here 3 times that i was interested in the Alpine 9815 HU...not the 9805, or 9807, or the 9803...keep in mind those are the only ones he carries. I literally had to repeat myself 3 or 4 times for him to finally realize which one i was talking about.... Now i just go in there and get what i need (usually wiring or fuses) and get out.
     
    BlkX, Oct 29, 2003
    #3
  4. Steven Kephart

    Steven Kephart Full Member

    Oh yes. He left my shop very happy. He had the stock 4" speakers in the rear, and one of the things I was to look at was one of those speakers. It turned out that the tweeter was fine, but the mid was blown. I told him that he could replace them, but I recomended to him to try listening to it without rear speakers. I told him that I don't run rear speakers and gave him the logical reasons why. I told him to save his money instead. I think he was rather surprised by my recomendation, and he took my advice.

    I should mention that he just bought the vehicle as is. The subs weren't working, and nor was one of the rear speakers (as mentioned above). I'm not familiar with PPI amps, so mabe someone else could explain. But I metered for AC voltage on the sub output and got nothing. I disconnected and metered the subs and got 5.2 ohms. My only guess is that they are dual voice coil subs wired in series? Anyway, I played with the switches on the amp and when I flipped a switch, the subs started playing. I believe it was labled like "EXT" and "INT" or something like that. Anyway it worked, so I wasn't worried.

    He then asked me what I thought of the subs on the phone (me calling him to let him know it is done). I told him that he should listen to them and decide for himself since he is the one that has to live with them. But I mentioned that I am not a big fan of bandpass boxes in general, and that to get it to sound somewhat decent, the enclosure has to be built specifically for the subs. I explained that the Q-logic enclosure wasn't. I told him to go to the local Eclipse dealer and find out the optimium size for a sealed enclosure would be for those subs. He told me that he would definitely come back to our shop for the enclosure.

    Man I am long winded.
     
    Steven Kephart, Oct 29, 2003
    #4
  5. The_Ancient

    The_Ancient Full Member

    my question is what labels the Qlogic or any Prefabbed Box "junk" to begin with???

    I have used Prefabbed for YEARS in many Low Budget installs when a Custom Built enclosure is not needed


    Just being "prefabbed" does NOT mean junk


    If your referring to it being bandpass. did you model it??? if not, you can not say it was a "bottle neck" or the enclosure was junk, it could have very well worked perfectly for that combo, with out modeling you just making assumptions, and you know what they say about assumptions
     
    The_Ancient, Oct 29, 2003
    #5
  6. Steven Kephart

    Steven Kephart Full Member

    Well I heard it, so I can assure you that it sounded like crap. If that enclosure was picked out because they thought it would sound perfect for those subs, then they must have been deaf.

    I suppose if they didn't price them so high, then I would feel different. But we can build the right size enclosure for the sub, guaranteeing a better sound for around the same price as the pre-fab box. And pre-fab ported, or worse yet bandpass, is a bad idea IMO. What are the chances that the sub will actually work with the size and tuning? I would say the chances are extremely small.
     
    Steven Kephart, Oct 29, 2003
    #6
  7. trifle

    trifle Full Member

    well...q-logic boxes (unless they've changed) are generally particle board with an mdf baffle right? generally unbraced, not that great edge sealing, etc....then you have the issue of a lot of the time they just sell you a box and you may not have picked one with a good volume for the sub

    not all prefab is crap though....but usually it's much cheaper to make a good one on your own regardless, assuming you have or have access to the tools...

    now this is just picky me but...it woulda been great steve had you been like well when i go home tonight i'll model up an enclosure for your subwoofer and see what we can do...or asked him if he had a preference in the sound of the subs...and made a box based on that, not on eclipse's recommended volume...or you coulda checked out the recommended volume....you don't wanna place him in another shop where their ideas could conflict or they could say they have a better chance of making the right box or just hell, for damn good customer service....just an idea (i liked the rear fill recommendation, bet he was surprised you didn't try to sell him something)...plus i know from experience that recommended box sizes aren't always best for my ears
     
    trifle, Oct 29, 2003
    #7
  8. Steven Kephart

    Steven Kephart Full Member

    I actually thought about that. Unfortunately it would have taken way too long to pull out one sub just to see what the model number was. Remember that I would have to take off the plexiglass piece, then the sub mounted at an angle. I figured that the dealer may be able to look at it and figure out which series it was. Plus their recomendation should get me an idea of size, and that will definitely be a huge improvement over what it sounds like now.
     
    Steven Kephart, Oct 29, 2003
    #8
  9. The_Ancient

    The_Ancient Full Member

    well that is good, but the impression I recieved and still am recieving is that purly because it was a Prefabbed box it is bad

    if there are other factors, great, but thouse factors can be in ANY box, prefabbed or not,


    to say it use purly because it was prefabbed is ignorant IMO...

    your Right, the box probally did not suite the wubs well in a Bandpass prefab, bandpass being VERY hard to tune properly, and very unforgiving from a design standpoint, however this is inherant with ANY bandpass, not just prefabbed


    the generalzation is what I find alarming, not the fact that is probally did sound terrible

    That would be like saying all subs are bad because the pyle's you listen to sucked :rolleyes:

    As far as the Price Comparion, You telling me your charging $50-100 for Custom built Boxs at your shop????

    I can buy prefabbed 3/4MDF sealed boxes .6-1cube singles for $25 and duals for $35, with free shipping is I buy over $800 worth...

    Not to mention is just makes sense to use Prefabed in some Instances, espically sealed, Why waste the Time and Labor reinventing the wheel?

    That would be like me Writting my own Custom Forum Software for this site, when there is a perfectly good alternative with less work


    I am not tring to say your wrong, but I dont think the in general prefab boxes are inherantly bad, espically in Sealed Applications

    I would have like to see a Explaination as to why The qlogic boxs was bad, I mayself have never used, owned or Sold Qlogic boxes, I have used SUbzone, Subzero mainly

    So is there was manufacturing problems, Qaulity, Tuneing Ect, that would have been better than stating "terrible qlogic" that would be like me stating "terrrible Kicker Sub" with out giving a reason why
     
    The_Ancient, Oct 29, 2003
    #9
  10. sandt38

    sandt38 Full Member

    I'm going to say at least 75% of all prefab boxes are really junk. The enclosures you are refering to Mike, generally use either 1/2 MDF or 3/4 particle board in most cases. Not to mention, they are rarely (in fact, I can't think of any time I have seen them) braced. As far as sealed, the resonance of the encolure, and flex are far from desireable in any case.

    Bandpass prefabs are all shit. I don't know of any case that a prefab bandpass will ever be properly designed... hell, most custom bandpass are all wrong as well ;). It is rare to find a properly designed and well built bandpass application.

    While it is a rather broad generalisation, I think it is a fair assesment of prefab in general.
     
    sandt38, Oct 29, 2003
    #10
  11. The_Ancient

    The_Ancient Full Member

    you must not know how to shop or buy prefabed then

    every prefab I have ever installed has been TRUE 3/4 MDF, like I said


    as far a internal Bracing, that really depends,

    1> Low Power, or very small Boxes dont need it, NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY

    2> it can be added VERY easly if it is needed

    3> in ALOT of cases bracing is over rated, much like Caps, the amount of flex the box would have to exert to become audible well, lets just say in 90% of the "common street" installs bracing is not really warrantied

    Now before you go off on this that and the other. I am not talking about 1600w to one subwoofer in the back of a grand national

    my point is, if I need a 1cube sealed box, I am buying prefabed, it would cost me more in wood alone (up to $25 per sheet here now) and alot of work, when I can buy a prefabed box and AT THE MOST add some braces and chaulk

    It is a Real No Brainer
     
    The_Ancient, Oct 29, 2003
    #11
  12. The_Ancient

    The_Ancient Full Member

    ohh and just so you guys know

    I am aurging just for the sake of Aurguing, I have nothing better to do, and this looked like a good topic to get somepeople fired up :p :p :p :p
     
    The_Ancient, Oct 29, 2003
    #12