My Poor 3000gt Vr4-help Me Change Speakers-long!!!

Damn! Thats sad. I almost broke down crying. :bash: :2guns:

 

Holy crap man! Took me like 15 minutes to DL all those pictures! :blink:

Well, for front speakers, I'd normally suggest the JL XR's...
I've got them and I love them, sonically, in virtually all ways.
But for mounting depth... I'm not sure how deep they are. They aren't big, but they aren't shallow for that matter either.
I got around it in my Civic... believe it or not, I have even LESS mounting depth than you, naturally... I was able to fit a 3/4" spacer between the woofer and the door's mounting surface, they fit with ease.

Another alternative might be to do kicks... and I don't mean the "angle it so it's crossfired" big, imposing bulks, but something more off-axis, which can actually often sound better at any rate. Keep them more out of your actual kick area.
If you can actually recess them into the cavity behind your kick panels (might require some cutting!), you'll even potentially improve stage width.

Illusion Audio is out of business, so you might have some trouble finding those drivers.
Besides the JL XR's that I truly love, I'd suggest checking out the DEI Viper 6.5's that are on sale at SoundDomain right now... MSRP is $499, they usually sell them for $399... and apparently they've lost their rights to sell DEI because you won't believe it... $139!! :blink:
Designed by Dr. Kurt Mueller, famous designer, also designed the XR's btw.. B)

As far as subs goes, there's enough Adire support on this board I'm sure I won't be the only one to suggest going with four Brahma 12's... but damn, that would be an ungodly amount of bass, and possibly a bigger price tag than you want. Don't know.. But for the accuracy that you desire, I think truly that would be your best bet, and I say so by virtue of the benefits that XBL^2 offers you.

Electrodynamic is a member here - he runs Stereo Integrity, so he can make a better case for his Magnums.. I'm admittedly completely and totally unfamiliar with them.

The IDmaxes are also very nice, and I believe have lower price tags than the Brahmas. By virtue of that alone, I'd give them the nod over the Brahmas.
Heck, IDQ's sound very nice...
I had a nice A/B session a while back with a dual-12" IDQ box / single 12" IDmax (v.2), and honestly they were virtually indistinguishable. The 12" IDmax was even nearly as loud as the two IDQ 12's, both sealed in ID recommended enclosures. Fun A/B. B)

Depends on how much output you are looking for, IMO.

Is the goal more SQ than SPL?
Why not do a ported enclosure, since it's all out?
You might be shocked to hear a couple XBL2 drivers in a ported box, how good the SQ is... and I'd bet my left nut that you'd have more output than those four Alumapros.

 

Have you looked into Morel mids?? They're also pretty shallow.

 

also i dont know if they still make them but the dei neo series was pretty good as well. Another to look at are the focal 165a's very nice speakers. Also im not to famliar with that car per say but if the xr's are about 1/2" to deep have you thought about makeing a spacer ring?. If you can do that it would be great. Also if you dont have the tools to do so i would gladly make you one all you need to pay is about 5 bucks for cost and what ever shipping is.


Scott Stoner

 

do you have any pictures of your door skins and maybe a pic of the door skin off?

 

The DEI Viper comp set I mentioned (the ones that are remarkably on sale at SoundDomain) have neodymium motors on them...
Possibly this is the same thing as the DEI Neo's that Scott is mentioning?

 

Well, I was suggesting 2 subs...
Say, 2 Brahmas, and ported.
And no reason you couldn't do it with that box... in fact, I'd bet it's better than ideal.. probably generously sized. B)

Your box is currently built for four subs, sealed...
I'm guessing it's more than enough volume internally for two Brahmas, ported.

You could mount the two Brahmas in 2 of the holes, and make two decorative plates up to not just cover the other two speaker holes, but also house a port per cover.
With that approach, cosmetics of those two covers is up to you, you could make them look pretty darn cool, really make them look like panels meant to highlight the ports.

Not only would that reduce your cost, it would reduce your weight (well, they are still pretty heavy, each... but 2 subs rather than 4), and increase your sound quality and SPL at the same time.

BTW... I know someone who is looking for two Mass 2012's...
Any chance those are for sale? :?:

 

I am afraid I would not let my babies go... they are well fed with 1200 watts a piece

http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/...329_26_full.jpg

and very well protected with that loading board that sits over them, LOL...

http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/...329_31_full.jpg

And their sound hits the right spot with me, very well balanced and very transparent even in a trunk of a convertible...

The problem with Brahmas is that 2 of them would not add up to 1 Ohm load... and the weight of 2 is close to 3 of any other sub...If I was to go with 2, I would most likely go with 15s since my box is 5.7 cu ft actually... so there is enough for 2 15s... But I talked to a guy I know for long time at a local install shop and he advised me not to go with 15s or ported box because of the type of music I like (no rap whatsoever) and the sound quality that (according to him) cannot get from a ported enclosure... And actually he has no clue why 4 12s sound weaker than 2 MASS subs... Big mistery... I am not sure if he is BSing me or not but I rarely buy anything from them so I guess he has no reason...

Anyway, I (maybe too naive) thought that I could just swap the drivers for other ones and make everything better... :unsure: [/b][/quote]
That's not necessarily nieve... if you get replacement subs that have the proper advantages over what you have now.

You'll almost purely want some subs that have higher excursion capabilities, if you are sticking with the sealed box...
And you'll also want subs that maintain their motor strength across that range of excursion.
That's really how you'll get them to be both louder (more displacement) and maintain the sound quality, if not improving it.
...assuming all the other specs yield a decent response plot shape in that size enclosure. B)


Consider your installer to be somewhat "old school", making traditional - albiet traditionally accurate - comments regarding sealed vs. ported.

Previously I'd have argued that whether you want to use Qts or EBP as a determinant, that some subs are simply "best" in a sealed box, while others are "best" in a ported application... and for those subs that don't straddle the line, putting them in the other type of box will compromise SQ and/or output regardless.
And traditionally, middle-of-the-road subs will tend to suffer a bit when put in a ported box, mostly by virtue of having to contend with the extra forces inside the enclosure created by the rapidly changing port airflow momentum.

XBL2 really changes that, by virtue of it's maintenance of BL curve flatness.
It's middle-of-the-road EBP and Qts values are accurate in that they do sound nice sealed, but they definitely mask their superiority in ported applications.

The XBL2 motor literally brute-forces the cone into being exactly where it's supposed to be, regardless of excursion level. It really shines in ported applications, by virtue of how well it does "keep it's manners".
In that sense, I don't think the EBP or Qts really reflect how well it will perform in ported boxes.

Your installer has no doubt dealt primarily with traditional motor and suspension technology, and in that respect, what he says is very correct.
His mistake (IMO) is not quite understanding the cause for why typically sealed box applications have traditionally sounded cleaner than ported box applications, and taking the leap to making a generalization about them.

Along those lines... I'm just wondering...
What's the Qts and/or EBP for those Alumapro's?
I'm wondering if maybe part of your SQ issue is even that some salesman had himself brainwashed that "sealed = SQ" regardless of subwoofer.

 

that's because the Fs is SO low...
The Qts is pretty middle-of-the-road, but that Fs will drive the EBP way down.
Makes sense to seal them (or 4th order BP, not 6th order).

If the box is too big, you could experiment with it...
Literally cut up two 2x4's into 2' sections, remove a sub, and stick them into the box. That'll eat up about a cu.ft., and you could see if things tighten up any.

I'm still a fan of the two Brahma 12's, using your existing enclosure, building 12" round covers with a 4" port each built into them to cover up the other two sub's holes, converting your enclosure into a ported one for the Brahmas.

I'd recommend it over a W7 even...
The W7 would get expensive as you know, you'd have not only one expensive sub, but all the reworking of your box and install.

I've heard some e12a's, they sounded nice... I liked the IDmax also (but I've only heard the v.2's), the ND12's I've heard are definitely sealed box subs... good SQ subs, but not very much in the way of SPL capabilities. I've never used or seen an SI Magnum, but... Electromagnetic (here on CAT) is the owner of SI! B)

The Hex's are supposed to be nice.. I can't comment as I've never heard them either.
IMO, it would be one of those things..."if you are happy with them.."
or maybe "If it ain't broke.." :lol:


Honestly, if midbass is the issue, I'd look more to the install itself than the drivers...
For example, how well is the surface they are mounted to working like a true baffle? Or is it somewhat leaky, less than ideal?
You've generally got more to gain in tightening up the "baffle" aspect of it, than you'd see with different drivers in there. If it's not a good baffle, the cancellations would still be there.

 

Seeing what they did to your car has me sick. Did you ever catch that son of a bitch :ranting: ?

I find the Hexs rather bright myself, lacking any real midbass as well. Depth is very obviously an issue and it is a shame the XRs will not fit. I was going to suggest them as well. What about the XR coax? I believe they are a bit more shallow, and still tremendous sounding speakers. However, I am not sure how well they will do so far off axis on the tweet. Ask Cort (flawlesskid) about his MBQ mids. He has mentioned dumping them in favor of some Vifas I believe for his 3 way set. The MBQ mids are really powerful, lively, and accurate. Personally, I think he should keep them, but he seems intent on getting something else. Maybe you could get yourself a good deal on them

The Brahmas will work very well with 600 apiece. If you choose to seal them, 1.2-1.5 feet will do well with that power, will get down low and dirty, and pound your skull from your shoulders. Porting them low is also an option as Chris said, but in a hatch type situation I don't know that all that bass is nessicary.

On that note, I will bow out. My intention was to offer my initial angry feeling about your car, and to offer my input on power nessicary to make the Brahmas hump. Outside of that, I have vested interest in Adire (therefore ALL my opinions are biased) so I will make no more mention of my opinion B) .

 

Using QTS as an indicator for enclosure design (which I prefer to do) I would never seal this driver. As low as it is, it screams no bottom end sealed to me. If the QTS were closer to .45 I would, but alas, .39 is ported all the way.

 

Not to try to think of any possible way you could run the Brahma's or anything, but...

I was just thinking that I bet you'd have a lot of fun with running two Brahmas in Resistively Damped Operation.
Which would give you the impedance that you want.
It wouldn't cut powerhandling in half either, since powerhandling is more a function of heat dissipation... the glue lets loose, it's not as if the wire melts, when a subwoofer thermally goes.
There's even some comment to that end on that on that tech paper: "Because the second voice coil is undriven, it acts somewhat as an "insulator" on the driven voice coil. As such, power handling is slightly reduced. It is best to "derate" the power handling of the driver by approximately 25%."

This might be appealing to you, because if you use a potentiometer as the resistor across the "empty" coil, you can vary the Q of the subwoofer/enclosure combo, changing the sound of the woofer on the fly... in fact, I bet you wish you could do this with those Alchemies now (although it sounds like you probably need to get a lower Q, if anything, with them... but still)!

OK, I'll stop beating the Brahma drum now.

Wow, 2400x1 is a big amp...

I've unfortunately got no personal experience with the Illusions, but I am repeating words voiced by very satisfied Illusion owners (or those who've enjoyed them), who have stated their virtues remain in the realm of high sound quality.

Ben has actually commented that his O's are more of a SQ sub, you might consider those actually, over the A's even.
I've only heard the A's myself - once with a prototype driver that sounded nice, but we certainly didn't stress it at all... and quite recently, two 12's sealed on a huge amount of power that didn't get as loud as I'd have imagined (we metered a 134dB), so I'd think something wasn't quite there... he did mention his gains were pretty conservatively set. At any rate, I'm basically saying I'm not much help here either.

The IDmax I've heard the v.2 driver, and it really was impressive, I heard it sealed on 1200 watts, and it got up and went, and maintained it's composure. It does have a very nice suspension, the ID guys use tolerances that NASA would be proud of (which brings efficiency up there), the only downside would be a relatively traditional motor, that has a decently broad (22.1mm) but parabolic BL curve on DUMAX.
But then again, virtually every other driver does outside the XBL2 world... so it's not a disadvantage per se.

<!--QuoteBegin-peter_euro@Dec 29 2003, 06:46 AM
I do not think the install is the problem with the midbasses, they are in the factory plastic baffles which are very tightly sealed plus the doors are very well lined with double dynamat xtreme... It is these speakers that sound very flat, the sound lacks any dynamics, just really loud... BTW, if I took my chances with the illusion ND6, what would be a good match for tweeters? I do have these 3in openings in the dash... :unsure: [/quote]

Is the actual entire door skin itself prepped to work like a baffle?
Those holes in the inner door skin (to access the door cavity) will allow the rear sound energy to exit, that's one potential problem... and the cancellation becomes worse and worse progressively, as the frequencies drop.
If those are sealed up well, that's probably not the issue, though.

I'd first try just swapping the mids, straight up. Swap the hex's mid for the ND6 mid, and see how it sounds. If you like that tweeter, use it.
I don't know anything about the frequency response of the tweeter or the ND6, that would be one potential difficulty.
If the ND6 reaches up cleanly beyond the crossover point you have now, then all is well. If it doesn't, then you'll either need to substitute a different mid, or replace the tweeter/crossover as well.
And I shouldnt' say "all is well", but "all is as well as it's going to be, since you are mixing-and-matching your own comp set together anyway".. because efficiency differences are one issue that could cause mild headaches.

Factory-built comp sets are generally nicely matched, the efficiency of the tweeter to the efficiency of the mid.
But you may find that with a custom-built set, your tweeter overpowers the mid, sounding bright and harsh, or the opposite, where the system sounds like it's lacking detail, even if both drivers are wonderful..
In this case, it's not the end of the world, you can build L-pads cheaply that balance efficiencies, but it's often an affair that involves trying a few out.