Dan and a Few other Smaller companies need to really watch their policies, Kiker, Jl, Alpine etc get around the Price fixing aspect BARLEY buy having only a MAP, but from whaty i hear these other "companies" requiire you to sel at their "suggested" price or they will pull your dealership, which is illegal if I was a Kicker Dealer I could sell or give out any kikcer product but I could not ADVERSTISE those prices, that is wju you see many store using "to low to list" or something to that effect This is still REMOTLY legal, as long as there is no agreement not to ever sell below MAP, like there was with the music industry and we all know what happened there the point is you can make a dealer adverstise at the certin price, but you can not EVER make a dealer SELL at a certin price, Dan and the reset of these new companies need to learn this befoere they find them selfs in the saem [postion the music industry was in...... you dont want to take on a anti-trust cvaxse, for a small company like adire, it will be game over, they could never afford to defend it.....
I agree... That's why I am mentally wrestling with the concept of how to handle non-direct sales myself! If we build a business model that says "we can sell to the customer for less money because we have less overhead by selling direct, we can minimize our profit margins so the customer gets the best product at the best prices"... That means we are making a profit that is acceptible to us, selling direct. OK, that's intuitive, I am sure. Now, let's say we decide to take on allowing dealers to sell our product... It's good for us, because it's out in front of more people now, right? Available to those who didn't know they could buy direct, etc. Except we have to sell at a lower profit margin to this dealer, so that they can compete with our direct prices... Otherwise it's a conflict of interest, we are somewhat screwing the dealer, right? Because after all, who would pay $300 for something from an online store when you could buy it direct from the manufacturer for $250, right? So, we have a lower profit margin selling to the dealer. Also, if the dealer decides to compromise on his "slice of the pie" to try to get more customers, he could lower his price below the direct price... In which case it's "Who would pay $250 direct from the manufacturer when you could get it for $220 with free shipping from suchandsuch Audio?" And the majority of the balance of sales end up going through this retailer... Which cuts our profit margins to "below acceptible"... at which point it's not worth it to be in business. It really is most ideal (for both, I think!) if both the retailer and manufacturer sell at exactly the same prices, because then that customer base will be split more evenly, the customers who would have purchased direct still will... And when it came time to add the retailer, the retailer's new set of customers will purchase through them. But like you said, that's basically price-fixing, right? Where did that black-and-white line go, as far as "right and wrong"??? Dammit.. :unsure: So, it's tough.. obviously I can see where Adire is coming from if they are mandating prices... I can't see another way through the risks myself! :blink: But I am willing to entertain alternative considerations... What do you think? I find this an interesting issue...
I agree... That's why I am mentally wrestling with the concept of how to handle non-direct sales myself! If we build a business model that says "we can sell to the customer for less money because we have less overhead by selling direct, we can minimize our profit margins so the customer gets the best product at the best prices"... That means we are making a profit that is acceptible to us, selling direct. OK, that's intuitive, I am sure. Now, let's say we decide to take on allowing dealers to sell our product... It's good for us, because it's out in front of more people now, right? Available to those who didn't know they could buy direct, etc. Except we have to sell at a lower profit margin to this dealer, so that they can compete with our direct prices... Otherwise it's a conflict of interest, we are somewhat screwing the dealer, right? Because after all, who would pay $300 for something from an online store when you could buy it direct from the manufacturer for $250, right? So, we have a lower profit margin selling to the dealer. Also, if the dealer decides to compromise on his "slice of the pie" to try to get more customers, he could lower his price below the direct price... In which case it's "Who would pay $250 direct from the manufacturer when you could get it for $220 with free shipping from suchandsuch Audio?" And the majority of the balance of sales end up going through this retailer... Which cuts our profit margins to "below acceptible"... at which point it's not worth it to be in business. It really is most ideal (for both, I think!) if both the retailer and manufacturer sell at exactly the same prices, because then that customer base will be split more evenly, the customers who would have purchased direct still will... And when it came time to add the retailer, the retailer's new set of customers will purchase through them. But like you said, that's basically price-fixing, right? Where did that black-and-white line go, as far as "right and wrong"??? Dammit.. :unsure: So, it's tough.. obviously I can see where Adire is coming from if they are mandating prices... I can't see another way through the risks myself! :blink: But I am willing to entertain alternative considerations... What do you think? I find this an interesting issue...[/b][/quote] I am glad you brought this uyp geo, because it is not has hard you you may think First you as a manufacturer set MAP price, Say for your 15in Sub your direct price os $300 So you make all of your dealers have a advertiused web price of $300, no differance Now yes your dealers CAN sell below that, but will they? probally not, depending on how the marekt is, I know I mark up a Item to "fair marekt value" meaning I go to web site(s) and find what the Going rate of the product is and set my price "around" that range if I can, no dealer WANTS to make 5% progit, but that is the way it goes with the mainstream products, some of the other brands that are not as widly avaible have much higher profit margins on them.... so if you selective with your dealers, and ahve a good understanding of MPA prices and how that policy is to work you will have NO PROBLEMS have a good dealer, and direct price comprimise with out violating any laws....
Dan and a Few other Smaller companies need to really watch their policies, Kiker, Jl, Alpine etc get around the Price fixing aspect BARLEY buy having only a MAP, but from whaty i hear these other "companies" requiire you to sel at their "suggested" price or they will pull your dealership, which is illegal if I was a Kicker Dealer I could sell or give out any kikcer product but I could not ADVERSTISE those prices, that is wju you see many store using "to low to list" or something to that effect This is still REMOTLY legal, as long as there is no agreement not to ever sell below MAP, like there was with the music industry and we all know what happened there the point is you can make a dealer adverstise at the certin price, but you can not EVER make a dealer SELL at a certin price, Dan and the reset of these new companies need to learn this befoere they find them selfs in the saem [postion the music industry was in...... you dont want to take on a anti-trust cvaxse, for a small company like adire, it will be game over, they could never afford to defend it.....[/b][/quote] I don't see it as fixed pricing, rather a suggested price for the product. There has been no mention of any fixed prices, I misrepresented myself. A fixed price would not allow for "free shipping" at all. This would be a reduction in cost for the product to the customer, hence how can it be "fixed"? Fixed pricing with advertised discounts such as this, would result in a loss of distributorship. Being that that isn't the case, as the blatant "free shipping" advertisements in some of Adires dealers ads would point this out as just plain untrue, and fixing prices are just not part of their buisness strategy. The markup on a small company's, such as Adire's, product is very nominal, so little is to gain from "free shipping" from the dealer. However, some dealers attempt to gain from quantity, and thus quality suffers. Not from a product standpoint, heavens no, but from a customer service standpoint. For those of us who have had to deal with poor customer service, we all would agree, I'm sure, that we would rather pay the shipping and suggested retail (when it is as low as Adire's) to have that piece of mind. That is where I come into play. I promise to maintain the greatest possible customer service, but I may not have the lowest price. I hope my reputation will preceed me into this market, and people who buy from me do it because they know I do my best to help anyone in need. This will transfer into the way I deal with customers in technical assistance, damaged shipments, and god forbid warranty issues should any arise. So, no, the prices are not fixed, and no my products may not come with free shipping. Now the question is... will people pay for a little piece of mind?
I don't see it as fixed pricing, rather a suggested price for the product. There has been no mention of any fixed prices, I misrepresented myself. A fixed price would not allow for "free shipping" at all. This would be a reduction in cost for the product to the customer, hence how can it be "fixed"? Fixed pricing with advertised discounts such as this, would result in a loss of distributorship. Being that that isn't the case, as the blatant "free shipping" advertisements in some of Adires dealers ads would point this out as just plain untrue, and fixing prices are just not part of their buisness strategy. The markup on a small company's, such as Adire's, product is very nominal, so little is to gain from "free shipping" from the dealer. However, some dealers attempt to gain from quantity, and thus quality suffers. Not from a product standpoint, heavens no, but from a customer service standpoint. For those of us who have had to deal with poor customer service, we all would agree, I'm sure, that we would rather pay the shipping and suggested retail (when it is as low as Adire's) to have that piece of mind. That is where I come into play. I promise to maintain the greatest possible customer service, but I may not have the lowest price. I hope my reputation will preceed me into this market, and people who buy from me do it because they know I do my best to help anyone in need. This will transfer into the way I deal with customers in technical assistance, damaged shipments, and god forbid warranty issues should any arise. So, no, the prices are not fixed, and no my products may not come with free shipping. Now the question is... will people pay for a little piece of mind?[/b][/quote] I would have to have to diwscredit you seth, dont make me How long would dan let you sell a Braham if you liusted them on the web at dealer cost plus shipping??? not long This would be a violation of MAP and most compaones would not allow that, this is BORDER line illegal How long would dan let you sell the bramha on the web if you has "call for price" and then sell them at dealer cost plus shipping,. again no long, and this is considered price fixing when I applied to be an adire delae, dan out right told me that dealer can not sell below their listed web prices, but could offer free shipping..... and no, the ONLY reason people dont buy direct form adire is because of Free shipping, you dont offer that people will just go to adire, I have yet to see a online web dealer that does not offer free shippping for adire products
just to be fair it is not just adire that has these policies most of the non-mainstream brands have the same policies, they feel it "protects the dealers and consumers" and in away it does. but the dealer. and the dealer alone should be responsible for judgeing what he/she need to sell a producty for. it is not up to the manufacturer to make that choice.. that can "suggest" but not tell now weather Seth has been told this by Adire I have no Clue, but I can say with 99% certinaity if Seth were to sell for less than Adire's web prices he would not be a dealer for every long,
Mike, everything you are saying is strictly conjecture. You may think that is the way it is, but you don't know. I am trying to figure out something... Why would he tell you the prices are set and you weren't authorised, when he and I have never discussed discussed the prices I "must" sell them at and I am authorized? I am confused. No mention of my pricing has ever been mentioned either directly or implied. Aside from the dealer price sheet, there has never been mention of money in any way shape or form. I don't care if this is your forum. Dont try to threaten me. I could easily do the same to you. That is very uncool.
Sorry seth, but I can pull up the good old archive over at CAT in my PM box where he and I talked about Online Web sales, Authorized Dealers etc, In there he say something to the effect that my dealer will all sell at the MSRP or they wont be dealers, and this is the "unstated" policy at many many many many companies, but just becasue it is unstated does not make it any less real....... I was not threatening you in anyway, but I know the facts, and you know the facts, even if you dont admit to them here. Makes no never mind to me anyway, it does not effect me any any way shape or form, I wish you all the lusk with selling adire, just dont sell below the prices listed on their web site, or they will cut you off.... simple as that Weather you want to admit it or not, Like I said in my Other Post, I dont know what converstion you have had, but I do know how companies in this industry act, and the hidden "underground" type policies, they all do it to some extent, some more than others, you can choose to ignor it if you want, but it does not chage the fact that it is a very very real issue. Again I was not threatening you in anyway, dont take it that way, but I have the facts, and if you want to disprove me, sell the Braham at your cost, and see what happens
Price fixing is illegal...but there are companies outside of the car audio realm that do the exact same thing. From my experiences working in golf shops, i came to hate Callaway mainly because we could not budge on their prices without losing our account. The one time we did take 10% off for a customer on a set of irons, we lost that particular line. I don't understand how something like this is enforceable if it is illegal, which i do understand it to be.
quite frankly, I admit what I know. I am not above steering a customer away from a product I sell if I feel he or she may be happier with something else. Many here will attest to that. I have recieved amazed replies to my steering someone away from my product, or towards a cheaper product I have or even to another dealer/second seller that may offer better prices. I have steered a few to you for A7s when you were selling them, even though I had access. It was just a better deal for them to get them from you. NO mention of pricing has ever occured. All I know is dealer markup to equal the pricing they list as suggested MFG retail is quite nominal I assure you. I am not doing this to make a ton of money, if I were I would have chosen differant equipment. I selected Adire and the other Mfgs I have and am planning on approaching because of the dollar/quality ratio. The companies customer service is also important. Do I want to sell equipment if the MFG will not back it up? No. Where are the companies going? This is very important: Will I rise or fall with them? I am selling value. that is key here. While you may have personal issues with Dan, that is not my concern, and you should not use this to attack me or something I have chosen to do. Very uncool. Nobody has stood behind you more both here and at S4S than me. I am forever dfending your buisness as I feel it is also fair, and honest with great customer service. You are the only non-wholesale or non-factory direct I buy from. While my views may differ from yours on many things, I still stand behind your commitment. I ask the same of you and my commitment, untill the day I prove to be full of shit. In other words, untill the day I close up shop.
the only people that have the $$$ to make a case against manufacturers are the state governments (not surpsiing sicne they take all out money ) so unless it effect a large number of the VOTING pubilc they will not look at the issue twice The music indusrty case is the First antitrust price case brought on in such a large scale, and I hope the states will continue to do their jobs and keep going after the countless nuber of inductries that do the same thing car audo is just one, there are alot of other feilds but Price fixing is just one aspect of the Anti Trust laws that the car audio industry in some cases violate, JL for instance Violates the Group Boycott clause by no allowing Online Sales, and there are others that i just dont feel like getting in to right now
Seth, dont think I am attacking you, get that out of your head, I mis-used words, and put my foot in my mouth, you should be use to that, I do it enough and my Personal Issuse with dan, are not rampant in this topic, it is my personal issue with the Industry's common pratices, I dont like them, I am a consumer FIRST, and a Dealer second, and that is probally why i will never be a successful dealer,
