Amplifier Discussion

Bang fo the Buck is deceptive..

Espically when the amp goes BANG


I would personally pass on Profile, Lanzar and Crunch (even though they are the same mfr does not mean they use the same quaity componets )

Kole I have never seen personally, they are owned by the same company as Power Acouik and Rumor has it not all they bad but since they have only been around for a couple years the long term stablity has yet to be figured

of you list HiFonics would be the Best

what price range are we talking? you should really figure atleast about $.30/watt for a good class D amp anything lower and I would be lery

 

I don't know, some of the old Lanzar werent too bad... the 1200d I believe it was, was an ugly SOB but it got the job done. I like Cadence. I know Mikey woln't agree, but there is no accounting for taste . www.usacaraudio.com has them there for as cheap as I know of. As far as authorized? They aren't. But I have never had a Cadence unit that I sold fail. SO no sweat. I'll be buying my Z1500 (2X750@1 ohm) from them when the time comes for me to get off my lazy ass and build my dual sealed Brahma enclosure. . Class D? Look into the ZRS8. It is dead sexy and a solid 1500 watt performer. I currently run a Z7000, which is a class A, yet more efficient than the JBL BP1200d... and it delivers 300 watts more. It is less expensive but it is also a monsterous amp, over 2 feet long.

Hyphonics are OK, but I'll take Cadence over the new Hyphonics anyday. Look into some Autotek too. They make some nice damn amps as well. Bear in mind, Autotek will have an amp listed like 400.1 (just a genaric #, I have some literature but it is tucked away in my pile right now) and it is 400 watts max, 200 RMS. They do list their wattage in RMS, but their part #s are a bit confusing. B)

What about the new Elemental Designs amps? They are the best amps to have ever been produced...

:blowup: BUUUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Sorry, I hadda do it.

 

Gonz dragged me over from another board where we hang out splbassx.com because I'm looking for similiar power and on a budget. I have two TC sounds TC2+12.2 subs that I'm wanting 500-600 watts each. I'll list what amps I'm looking at and what I've learned. I do have a size restictions. This amp must fit into the same rack as my USX600F does now so it can't be any wider than about 11" which rules out some amps. I do not have the time to re-build my rack.

Lanzar Opti2000D: This amp has been benched by a car rag and does it's power. After a conversation with a dealer who sells Lanzar he stated his distributor also offers refurb amps and out of 100 amps over half were lanzars and that is consistant from month to month. This includes the optidrives so I think Lanzar has some Quality control issues. Too bad since the amp puts out it's rated power.

PA2400DB This amp is a hard one to figure out. Can't find any issues with quality but noone seems to know if it does it's numbers or how close it gets. Plus you get a the PA is junk nitwits who have no hands on mucking up peoples threads. I emailed Power Acoustik and asked them the differences between the PA2400DB, the Kole Q1-2400D and the SPL Z1X2400D. His reply was that it was the tests run and the standards for the test that were different. The amps are the same accept the heatsink. So I ask which one is tested at the highest standard and he replyed that the Kole amps are tested with the highest standards and have the best heatsink design so they will run the coolest. So the Kole Q1-2400D is now on my list.

BOSS RT2550D Well before you blow this amp off, read on. This amp was tested in ahead to head vs the Hifonics brutus BX1500D. It outperformed the brutus into a 2ohm load, playing a little louder. This is not scinetific but a good indication this amp puts uot some good power. IT is NOT 1ohm stable. You can read the post here: http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=191043
I spoke to the same dealer who carries lanzar and he also carries BOSS. He stated that he has been selling BOSS amps for 3 years, with about 15 amps a month going out the door (he is a brick and morter and internet). He has had only 1 returned for failure and that was the IQ IQ3kd.1 which is rated to one ohms and was run at .87 for over an hour before it went into protection and didn't come out. The BOSS has a 6 year warrenty, First year is 100% over the counter replacement and then 5 years that cover parts and labor. This same dealer had the IQ3kd.1 benched and it did 1679V at 2 ohms with an input voltage of 13.8 volts. All BOSS amps are rated at 13.8v. I have searched many boards and people talk trash regarding BOSS amps but NOONE has posted any data, just repeating a mantra IMHO with no experience or none recently. Now the dealer stated the BOSS amps do 1/2 thier MAX power ratings and that is a part of thier reputation, they used to advertise with ONLY max power, now they do a combo of both. This puts the RT2500D in the 1200watts@2ohms. Not bad for an amp that has 6 year wattenty and only costs around 200.00. Now to put some damper on this he stated a customer had a PA300D, solid it to get the IQ3kd.1 and then sold it to go back to the PA300D. He did not state what the client didn't like. So this amp is on my list, and if I can't swing enough $$ for a more expensive choice I'll get the boss.

Hifonics Brutus BX1500D The brutus is a solid amp but it was benched and it does NOT do it's numbers. At 12.5v it only does 1000@1ohm. At 14.v it would come close to it's 1500@1ohm but not quite. At 2ohms it would do about 700-900 is the guess depending on voltage. Not bad and that is close to what I want but not quite.
Here is the thread on the bench test: http://forum.sounddomain.com/forum/ultimat...=2;t=038951;p=1

There are other choices but not much in my price range. The MTX1501D, Autotek SX1200.1, Orion 1200D. All would work but a tad rich for my wallet. At this point IT's either the KOle or the Boss. If I can fit the Kole (It's 111.25" wide) and swingh the extra $$ for it I'll get it, if not I'll give the BOSS a try. I get 60 day return for full credit and it has a damn good warrenty. Why not try it and see what it does?

SteamHammer

Oh, iI almost forgot. I had an Ultra LInear UL400HC. This is a Class A/B mono amp that does 1200x1@1ohm (14.4v) The amps does put out some jiuce but it is hella wide (12.5") so I didn't keep it. This si when I found out my amp rack has width restriction becuase of the way my trunk lid closes. DOH!!!! It has nice featiures as well. Might check it out.

 

6 Year warrenty? I'd say go for the Boss. Not much to lose.

Wow, the Z1500 does fit the bill for two Brahma's. I must have overlooked it before.

:gunsmilie:

 

Thank you _gonz_, I'm objext here as well

I just placed my order for a brahma 15 I'll have to get some pictures and tell you my opinions once it arrives and I install it

One other thing I'd like to add to this discussion is what wiring/fuse guage should be used for an amp pushing 1-1500w? Currently I'm just running 8ga since I have a big roll of it already (not sure where it came from lol).

-Matt

 

Also, since I'm only getting a single brahma my options are a 4 ohm (series) or 1 ohm (parallel) load, correct? What would be the best configuration for this, then? I'm not totally clear on what I should be looking for (1000+ w rms @ 4 ohms? 1000+ w rms @ 1 ohm?).

 

I forgot to mention that the cadance amps are a great option but they are too large for my application and cost too much $$$ for my budget. Damn fine amps though. Never hard anything bad about them.

 

Si... I am liking the new looks of the Cadence too. I am likely going with a Z8000 for my comps as well.

Objext,

I reccomend a minimum of 4 Ga, but I prefer bigger wire than that. Maybe run the 8Ga to your comp amp and another run of 4 to the sub amp. As far as the load? Whatever really. 1000@1 ohm or 1000@4 ohms, it is all the same as long as it delivers the power you want.

Steamhammer,

The tiny footprint you are limiting the amp to makes meeting your needs tough to meet. I believe that Scott Stoner likes the PA stuff, maybe I can get him to talk with you about it. I'll hit him up really quick and link him. I have a funny feeling he will be all up on the PA, and with that being said it seems like the most likely canidate to fit the bill... I trust Stoner fully.

 

the good thing about HiFonics is that you can get them for extremely cheap...
they sell the BX1500D for $245 off of ikesound and sounddomain will price match them
even if they are underrated...1000 watts for $245 is one helluva a deal...
-Cody

 

Boss used to be Crap, but from about 01 on they starting getting petter and better

AVA has done Great things, you should note that AVA owns both planet and boss audio

the cheaper stuff is still iffy and they still use inflated MAX ratings for the Stamp on the amp, but over all they are not bad for Entry level

Seth,

Cadence is a Great amp, and I will recommend them to people. I just wont run them myself becuase of the known issuse's... I was one of there biggest supporters, they told me to basiclly fuck off, so Fuck um :lmfao:

Geo need to COme out with the amps

 

as far as the impedance that someone mentioned. it realyl doenst' matter. your sub will give you the option of 1 or 4ohm, so just look for an amp that puts out your desired power at either of those. it makes very little sound difference, just gives you options. Generally if you want to keep your legit power class down for competition use or something runing 1ohm would be better seeingas a 4ohm rating on a 1500w 1ohm amp will likely be drastically lower (350 or so)

 

Yes I know but I work 2 jobs, have a wife and kid, coach soccer, I'm remodelling my house and I need to build a box for my two subs I have NO TIME to rebuild my amp racks and no money to pay someone to do it. The rack is right under where the trunk lid arms comes down and it will bump the amp if the amp is too wide. The car is a Satrun SL2 which has dick for a trunk. Back of the seawt mounting doens't work becuase to pushes the sub box over my spare tire. Another NoNo in my install. I hven't measured how much room I have but My USX600F is 10.5" high and it has about a 1" clearence. I'll need to get in the trunk and measure the lowest point. If I can swing the clearence and the cash I'll get the Kole, otherwise I'll do the boss. I might do the boss anyway since my source will do a 60 day exchange for me.

 

I had a good conversation with Gonz on the phone tonight about this...

I don't want to make any specific suggestions, but I do have a few things to mention, things to be aware of, to help you make a decision, hopefully.

One, being the old "you get what you pay for."
If you have an "expensive" amp that is rated at 50x2 because it was measured at some low distortion percentage, that really can "bench" at 100x2 when it's operated at a higher distortion capacity...
And you compare that to a "cheap" amp that's rated at 100x2 because it was measured at a higher distortion percentage, that really only "benches" at 50x2 when you measure it under the same low distortion percentages...
If these two amps cost the same amount of money, is the 100x2 amp really "cheap"? Is the 50x2 amp really "expensive"?

Another thing to consider is where the design effort is focusing.
I've got a PHD2 that does 2000x1@2 ohms. I'm operating it at 1000x1, on a 4 ohm load... my distortion specs should be cleaner, etc, than the 2 ohm load. But, the amp really makes my subs sound like mud. Very poor in the SQ department.
But, this really isn't a valid complaint, because the amp was built simply to put out power... designed to give SPL competitors the raw power they need. They skimped everywhere else - intentionally - it seems. Not a problem, when stated in those terms.
But if you are looking for an amp that has good sound quality, looking at power specs - or specs at all, for that matter, may be of little help to you.
You do get what you pay for.

I think you should also think in these terms...
Yes, the "Boss" amp might carry a 6 year warranty (and really honor it, who knows!). And the amp might "bench" at it's rated power - at some distortion percentage, maybe even an acceptible one. But if the design isn't focused on SQ, it might also simply turn your subs to mud. Or your front speakers, depends on what you are shopping for.
There's more to shop for than power. There's also quality, and this simply is where your money is going. There's "bang for the buck", and then there is "cheap". :detective:

Speaking of "benching" an amp...
These tests are nearly always flawed. Rather inherently.
One good example, is a company I respect highly - Alpine.
I have an Alpine MRV-1507 in my posession. Came with a birthsheet... a bench test rating, you've seen these - 'personal to each amp'.
The amp is rated at 150x2 at 0.08% distortion (at 4 ohms stereo), S/N of 100dBA.
The birthsheet in the amp said the actual "benched" power for this amp was 193w per channel!
Wow, right? Not really...
Right below that, it said "Signal to noise: < 100dBA <"
...and the "greater than 100dBA" symbol was circled.
Well hey, I can take any amp out there, that's rated reasonably, crank the gains, increase my distortion... but also increase what is technically my RMS power output.
"bench tests" are nearly always bad reference points, simply because the conditions of the test rating aren't specified.
...and that includes those of the magazines, who may have their own set standard ("that's how we rate all of them!"). That's not bad at all, in fact good, if you are comparing two amps, both of which the magazines have rated.
But not valid at all, if you are looking to compare bench-test numbers to a manufacturer's published specs.

And maybe we're putting too much of a concern on power anyway.
Remember, the relationship between power and output level (dB) isn't symmetrical. It takes a 4x increase in power to effect a 2x increase in output. Going from a 400w amp to a 600w amp (as long as they are rated the same ) is most often hardly audible. Going from my 400w amp to a 2000w amp being operated at 1000w is just a mild audible difference...
...so what are you really gaining, at any rate, in choosing to spend your hard-earned duckets on selecting a cheapo-brand amp over a high-end brand amp, because you could buy the cheapo-brand's 600w amp when you could only afford the high-end brand 300w amp? :unsure:

Efficiency is the real issue.
As mentioned above, it takes a full 4x change of power level, to effect only a 2x change in dB level.
At the same time, changing your enclosure size will effect a proportional change in the efficiency of your subwoofer. The actual "sensitivity" spec for a subwoofer really is pretty meaningless, as it's the enclosure/subwoofer combination together that matters... and as you increase the volume of your enclosure, you inherently make that subwoofer more efficient... which means it needs less power to reach full output levels.
If you can afford a bigger box, you can enjoy more dB level... most often more than you would have had with the smaller box and the bigger amp. h34r:
And at the same time, reaping the SQ benefits of the larger enclosure (including not only increased low-frequency extension, but also better damping properties - better cone control)

If money is the issue... and trunk space can be afforded... the best bet very well may be to spend the same amount of money on a reputable brand, smaller amplifier, which will most often be said to be "underrated" (in reality, it's more a matter of what distortion percentage they chose to rate at ), and ensure yourself of sound quality... at the same time, planning a larger enclosure for the subwoofer that's appropriate for that amount of power.

The rating on a subwoofer is only it's thermal rating, after all.
The mechanical rating for the subwoofer is completely dependent on the enclosure, and how much power it'll take under those conditions to drive the subwoofer to it's excursion limits... and that's why you don't ever see it spec'd as a rating.
It's also why companies typically lean to small enclosure recommendations for their subwoofers... fewer concerns of warranty returns, if they only suggest enclosures that allow their subwoofers to receive their full thermal RMS rating worth of power before reaching their excursion limits.
Something to ponder.

These are just some things off the top of my head...
Feel free to criticize or question. B)

 

Oh - and welcome to Objext and Steamhammer as well! :ss:

 

Thank you for your response geolemon Since you brought up enclosure sizes, perhaps you can comment on the post I just made regarding an enclosure:
http://caraudiotalk.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=3183

:yes:

 

OK the first post I belive was talking about PA or power acoustic...........Then some took it as PA or Planet Audio.................... Either way I love planet audio amps..........I bow to them and swear to them.....................You will not find a better bang for the buck. I run used to run 8 1250d's on the 2 B-15's....................I have ran 2 2250d's on teh 2 b-15s ..........I have ran 2 pa2500d's on the 2 B-15's....................I have ran a PA4200 which was 200 watts rms to one of my b-15's...............I have Ran Planet audio Tube amps hvt7150 hvt7100..................REM2400 800 rms for my front stage......................I have ran many many different types of planet and have used all of there woofers.................Best bang for the buck company on the market.

 

Bah!!!

Thanks for lookin in on it bro

 

I would say check out the Phoenix Gold Tantrum 1200.1 as it pushes out 1400-1500 watts RMS at 4 and 2 ohms, but mine just ran into a small problem. I doubt it is major, but a problem nonetheless. I think I am in the minority too, because everyone I know who's owned a 1200.1 has had ZERO problems with it. It is discontinued, so you might be able to find it somewhere like Sounddomain or The Zeb.